Victor Adebowale

Sarah Brennan: 00:03

Hello, I'm Sarah Brennan and welcome to Leader to Leader. This is the podcast series where leaders in the third sector talk about their experience of what it's really like to be a leader today.

Sarah Brennan: 00:16

Today I'm delighted to welcome my old boss Lord Victor Adebowale, CBE, chancellor of the University of Lincoln, Chair of NHS Confederation, co-founder and chair of Visionable, chair of Social Enterprise UK, patron of Race On The Agenda, chair and leader of many other projects, seven or eight honorary degrees. The list goes on. Victor, thanks so much for joining us today. You're someone who's very thoughtful about leadership, and you've even co founded an organisation about leadership. What kind of leader would you say you are?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 00:51

Oh, crikey. Well, I'd like to think a human one. But no, now, I mean, that in the sense that WYSIWYG, what you see is what you get. I don't pretend to be superhuman. I like to think that I am thoughtful, considerate, focused, people can see that I have made that in an emotional investment in the outcome. I hope that I can inspire when necessary, I hope that people see that I have more than one tool in my bag of leadership, I think, and that I know when to get out of the way, basically, that's a really nice description. And you mentioned having a emotional commitment to the outcome. It's a really powerful concept, I think, and one that possibly lots of people don't think that much about, do you want to say a bit more about that? Then somebody asked you a question about your leadership style. It's a bit like that really agree paying thing where the guy looks in the mirror and sees the back of his head?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 01:43

I just think I've given some thought to the debates about what's the difference between leadership and management, I guess my view has always been that leadership involves the emotional investment in outcome and or an intention, and that differentiates it from management, not that I value one higher than the other. They're both necessary in equal measure. But the emotional investment means that you are the tool that you're using, if you see what I mean, you can't replace that with a computer or a machine. Not yet anyway, whereas management is the allocation of resources, the most valuable being timed. And as we see, increasingly management can be and has been, in many cases replaced by algorithms that can do that, just as well.

Sarah Brennan: 02:25

Do you feel then that you've had a big emotional investment in the outcomes in the organisations that you've been retired chief executive? Yeah, have retired? And is that have been a key part of your success?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 02:37

I don't know about success. Some people might argue with you about that. You know, I would argue that it's been the fundamental part of anything I would call successful. Yeah. I would argue that that's my modus operandi. Yeah, where I've been successful, it's largely because of the fact that I have given something of myself to the process,

Sarah Brennan: 02:57

whether you've cared you've cared about the outcome?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 03:00

Yeah, the outcome is, you know, the outcome, the intention has been my North Star, whenever I've made something. I don't want people to think that I'm kind of you can be misconstrued to be in a kind of emotional diarrhoea, you know, kind of thing. What I mean is that, you know, I've given of myself in that people can see that I am focused on the outcome, and invite the team to engage in that discussion about intention. And then I'm really interested in the process that gets you there and creating the right scaffolding around that.

Sarah Brennan: 03:36

Just looking back, I thought Centerpoint the homelessness charity was your first chief exec role. I think you corrected me on that one. You were you you had done it before that but even at Centerpoint, you were you were young, you were in your early 30s, a young black guy who is a leader in a environment of the charity sector that at the time, was a pretty white leadership sector. And it was a big role with an organisation that had a very high profile around an issue that was very high profile. I'm interested to know how many for me, you were my boss. I just saw you as my boss, but what was it like for you?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 04:19

I didn't see myself as your boss. I'm gonna be honest. No, maybe I was bossy, but I don't think

Sarah Brennan: 04:25

Maybe I was bossy too...

Lord Victor Adebowale: 04:26

Well as I recall, you were that wasn't always a bad thing. I think, you know, how was it? I mean, a baptism of fire one that was a difficult challenge, because when I arrived, we were losing a few million a month. I think my first day was, I had to go to meet Princess Diana, and persuade her to be continuous patron. It wouldn't look good if I'd come back and what an auspicious start with just lost the most famous woman in the world is our bedroom. And then I had to go onto their programme and explain youth homelessness. And then I had to come in and sit down with the finance director who told me that we were best basically on the verge of going belly up, the first things I did was get the windows cleaned. Nobody could see in. So, you know, we have these really dirty windows, nobody could see in or out and actually getting the windows cleaned. people noticed that, you know,

Sarah Brennan: 05:16

and meaningful activity, in fact, yeah

Lord Victor Adebowale: 05:18

I thought it was actually meaningful let letting the light in and letting people see out and managing and leading in a goldfish bowl because, you know, nobody expected. And I think it's fair to say nobody expected me to come back with our patron. And then nobody expected a six foot black guy to be leading such high profile charity that was thrust into the spotlight in a way, but while having to orientate the leadership team, to the challenges that the organisation actually faced, I suppose when I look back on it now, I think that I had to model both management and leadership, I had to operate both tactically and strategically. And I had to do so publicly. And in terms of my practice, it taught me an awful lot about who I was, and how I operate. And it taught me an awful lot about teams, both functional and dysfunctional.

Sarah Brennan: 06:12

It must have taken both a lot of bravery and probably a fair dose of bravado to see that one through.

Lord Victor Adebowale: 06:20

Well, I don't know about bravado, I mean, that people think that leadership has a lot to do with it. I knew I could do it. And I had an end goal in the issue. You know, what, what Centerpoint did the mission, the issue was about youth homelessness. And about young people that were born with, as little as I, I had, when I was that age or less. There, my intention was, first of all, to ensure the organisation survived. Secondly, create a strategy that was inspirational for the people that work there, and, more importantly, the young people. And thirdly, to build a platform that was relevant to young people, as they were now. So we did do some groundbreaking things. And you were you were involved in some of them. We ran the first youth homelessness, youth employment centre, I recall, we designed big chunks of the new deal for employment, we did a lot of things that actually placed people I think, in a new light.

Sarah Brennan: 07:18

So that sounds like actually having some clear goals, vision, absolutely critical. Those to us, but probably to leadership in general.

Lord Victor Adebowale: 07:31

Well, yeah, I think so. I mean, there's that saying, I don't know who said it. Now, I think it's a biblical statement, without vision that people will die. Having a vision is related to intention, the starting point, having a vision that aren't attached to values, and appoint I mean, values that aren't attached to a strategy they're not going to have a strategy that isn't attached to operations, and people have to see and operate. That's to see the alignment between them, what their role is in keeping that alignment.

Sarah Brennan: 07:58

And that's interesting for your next role. So well, all of it is always easier said than done, I think. But you went on to be chief executive of Turning Point where you stayed for 20 years, almost, which is an achievement in itself, I think. But one of the things that seemed quite incredible is the growth that happened in that during your tenure.

Lord Victor Adebowale: 08:25

Well, I mean, I think my vision, Turning Point was really, the thing about people with substance misuse challenges is that they all have mental health problems. And I guess my starting point was, how can we create the next generation of substance misuse services, such that we can start making connections between substance misuse mental health, we could start creating communities recovery, and we could just change the perception but more to the point that it's actually a turning point and a very charitable model, which meant that, you know, we were getting grants to deliver services, and these grants were not necessarily they didn't cover the cost, basically. So my vision was to commercialise Turning Point services, such that they were viable and capable of growth in a market where there was a massive demand for services that were more integrated,

Sarah Brennan: 09:40

Which is a fairly radical idea of its own.

Lord Victor Adebowale: 09:43

It would appear to have been Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Brennan: 09:47

so is this what drove or inspired you to change the organisation to become a social enterprise rather than a charity?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 09:56

Yeah, because you know, one of the things that always irritated me actually about Centrepoint was the fact that, you know, here we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in society. But we were reliant on whether somebody put a pound in, in a charity box or, you know, left us some money in a will or, you know, we're begging, literally begging for funds to help with young people who were begging on the streets, that always seemed odd to me. And I used to say to some of our funders, if it was your kids homeless on the street, would you rather they had a service that was dependent on whether somebody put a pound in a collection box or whether it was because there was a sustainable, viable business model that would show that your kid if the word on the streets got a service that was high quality and understood and cared for? So I arrived at a Turning Point with the view that, you know, while these people are very vulnerable, and it was a fact still is that if he removed some of Turning Point services from many of our cities and towns on the Monday, you would notice a difference by Wednesday afternoon? Should that be a service that's paid for by look? Or should it be part of the infrastructure public services run? Well run the commercially financially viable, so we can provide the very best services, we needed to stop the charity thinking than the charity thinking was, it was it's a bizarre thing in which people think that because they weren't for a charity there for what they do, we need to go to the doctor worry about its viability, or its value, by sort of the view that actually was everybody's job in turning point to worry about the viability and the value. And therefore, the best model was not charity, it was actually a social enterprise.

Sarah Brennan: 11:38

So it's actually a matter of principle in terms of the very basic and bases that the organisation is, is founded on?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 11:46

Well, yeah, it wasunder threat. I mean, the fact of the matter is at the time we would find a local authority saying things to us like, well, you know, here's 500 quid to deliver 1000 pounds worth of services. And when we said, well, that's not enough that say, well, can't you fundraise for the rest? So it was quite pragmatic, it was like, and suddenly lots of organisations didn't do fundraise for the rest. I don't think that's a very transparent or open way of funding services. But also, I think it's very, very risky, because you might not be able to fundraise for the rest, then why are you stuck with below par service that's not delivering, or indeed a service that isn't meeting the need? Well, so for me, it was a matter of principle, because of what I believe the most vulnerable should be getting in society. But also it was commercially pragmatic.

Sarah Brennan: 12:36

Yes. And it sounds like that also, you felt that that changed, or shifted the focus of the culture of the organisation.

Lord Victor Adebowale: 12:45

So be honest, the culture of the organisation, was one of the key issues for me that the, there's a lot going on at the time, within Turning Point, I think I had been there fifth chief exec in six years or something like that. So there was a question of what the organisation actually was, what it stood for, what was leadership for in the organisation, and my view was, I still do believe, and they believe that one of the key responsibilities of the Chief Exec of any organisation is its culture. And if you are presented with a culture that is dysfunctional, then you are responsible for changing it. And you have to think about how that might be done in a systemic way. And it seemed to be more systemic intervention I could make was to look at the business model.

Sarah Brennan: 13:32

Would you say that your leadership style has changed over the years?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 13:37

Yeah, I think so. I think it has, you know, I like to think I'm an older, wiser person with more. I'm sure you will. And the more wisdom to apply for my practice as a leader, and less ego, frankly, yeah, I like to think that I've learned some things over the years that are useful in what I do now and what I may do in the future, I think you've got to keep learning and you just got to keep developing.

Sarah Brennan: 14:12

Yes, it's something about being alive actually isn't it's about. I mean, are there particular qualities that you know, you have that have helped you? So, for instance, I would say, you know, you've got a definite presence...people notice you, you know,

Lord Victor Adebowale: 14:29

The only black guy in the room, but has nothing to do with anything I bring. It's just a six foot black guy with a dodgy beard. It's like That's why

Sarah Brennan: 14:38

I don't think that's completely to me. That isn't what I meant you are, you have a physical presence, but you also have a presence about you. And I'm sure you're aware of that. I want to ask if that's helped you

Lord Victor Adebowale: 14:51

People say it but literally what I've said is that why what I assume it's about-in most of the settings that I practice leadership, I'm the only black guy in the room. So of course something to be noticed, and everyone else is as white as the driven snow, they're not used to seeing a black guy actually take up the role of leader, you know, they're not used to it. It's not, it's still very rare in this country for that to happen. And people expect, well, they don't know what to expect. And it's that sort of potential between what they think the experience is and what it might actually be that people might consider presence. I like to think I'm intentional in where I am and what I'm doing and what I'm saying and who I'm doing it and saying it with, and that might give me some presence,

Sarah Brennan: 15:37

has that helped or hindered?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 15:39

Sometimes it's helped and sometimes it's hindered. You know, in order to be a leader, one has to have followers and followership is a much under studied area. But I've noted that if people see you as what's the word charismatic, that can mitigate against them, seeing you taking you seriously listening to you, it can create, you know, antibodies, it can create a sense of, Well, you know, resistance, you know, it is very contextual. And leadership involves having more than one tool in your bank and understanding where it's necessary to be different.

Sarah Brennan: 16:19

What does the future hold? Where does your leadership take you next?

Lord Victor Adebowale: 16:23

Well, I think it's less about position and more about system as observed the leaders and leadership over a long period of time, and I've studied it academically, I am intrigued by the way people perceive leadership in the West, the way it's defined, people expect you to move from one chief exec post to the other and this notion of control and grip. And I've noticed how complex organisations have become. And I guess, you know, I'm interested in system leadership, much more than I am organisational leadership, not that I'm saying that there's a difference in the two things are connected. But I'm interested in system leadership, because it's more to do with complexity. And I think I'm interested in that. And I've become quite fascinated by it when I've seen it, which is leadership beyond boundaries, leadership across large complex systems, coaching people, and working with other leaders in groups. And now, the things that I'm involved in, are all very much about learning, but they're very much about what I'm going to learn in applying my leadership practice in this context or that context, the same things still apply, I'm still very much interested in inequality and equity, because I can't see how you can't be frankly, very, how can you not be given the world we live in? But I'm interested in, you know, testing my thoughts about leadership. And what I've learned, which, I guess, boils down to probably four things, actually, the first of which is I think control is a seductive illusion. And I think it's a bit of a salve, to the anxiety of organisational life and leadership, I think but it is an illusion. Generally, I'm not saying that the bigger the organisation or system, the more the illusion is very similar to me. The second is that situational leadership is necessary. So that's the point about, you know, if there's a fire, you know, sometimes you need to apply direction on leadership. I think John Heron's work on this is quite important, I think in this, but it's only useful if you leave it as a suite of interventions and an understanding of the context, how they might be applied. The third is what we've discussed that leadership is the emotional investment in in an outcome or an intention. And then the fourth is that I think I've come to understand that relationships are fundamental fuel of leadership, the fundamental field of leadership, interventions, learning and impact. I'm struck by people who think leaders and think that culture happens by some kind of accident, you know, that they're not responsible for the relationships that they encourage for, and that relationships really and about conversations aren't all about meaningful conversations.

Sarah Brennan: 19:15

I just want to say that it has been a delight as ever to have the time and the opportunity to have this conversation in this chat with you. Thank you very much indeed.

Lord Victor Adebowale: 19:29

Likewise, thank you very much, Sarah, Take care now.

Sarah Brennan: 19:34

That's it from this episode of Leader to Leader. I do hope you enjoyed it. And if you did, please rate and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Next time I'll be talking to Catherine Roche, the chief executive of place to be this is a brilliant national organisation providing mental health support in schools across the UK. Until then, take care