Catherine Roche (part one)
Leader to Leader is the podcast series where leaders in the third sector talk about their experience of what it's really like to be a leader in the charity sector today. In this episode, Sarah Brennan meets Catherine Roche, the chief executive of Place2Be, the national organisation providing mental health support in schools across the UK.
Transcript
Hello, I'm Sarah Brennan, and welcome to Leader to Leader. This is the podcast series where leaders in the third sector talk about their experience of what it's really like to be a leader today. Today, my guest is Catherine Roche. Catherine is the chief executive of Place2Be, the brilliant national organisation providing mental health support in schools across the UK. Their support ranges from counselling to family support to professional training. In the time, I've known it, Place2Be has grown from a small organisation to being very national and employing over 500 staff. Like so many organisations, they had to respond rapidly to the pandemic. By completely changing their ways of working. They went from face to face counselling and support to an online service. By doing this, they successfully continued their help to children, young people and schools throughout the challenges of COVID-19. And the school closures. Catherine has been the leader in the organisation since 2003. First as a pro bono management consultant, then loving the organisation so much joined as Chief Operating Officer. And now for the last eight years, Catherine has been the chief executive. Catherine, welcome. Catherine, you've been at place to be for many years, nearly over 18. And it's fantastic to have you here today. So I just want to say thank you for coming.
Catherine Roche:Oh, absolutely delighted to be here.
Sarah Brennan:Sarah, I wanted to kick off really about your journey, getting to a place to be in the first place. You started off I understand working for KPMG in the private sector being a consultant and had spent time in America studying in America before that. How did you come from being a consultant with an international company KPMG to being the chief executive of a charity called Place2Be?
Sarah Brennan:be
Catherine Roche:It was probably an interesting route at the time. And it probably started before before being at KPMG. I originally trained as a teacher when I was in university back in Cork in Ireland. And I spent a number of years teaching in France. So overseas. And at that point, I was lucky enough to work with an incredibly inspirational lady from India as it happens, who really encouraged me to think about...Well, she planted the idea of doing an MBA actually going back to to business school because I was teaching adults at that point. So from there, I went on the journey to do an MBA, which was studying in Boston University, and then loved the nature of the projects on the MBA programme, and discovered this role of consultancy. So that idea of starting a project clear goals and objectives and completing a project and then getting on with the next thing I absolutely love that got real energy from that....joined KPMG. And then within the team, I joined a group called strategy, economics and marketing. And we used to do lots of different and quite unusual, non standard if you like projects, and we had an inquiry from our what would now be our corporate social responsibility team to get involved in a charity, who was interested in looking at business plans. And that was Place2Be so that was Benny who had founded Place2Be and had reached out to KPMG. So I got involved, we often saw projects of this nature as a way of building a developing skills. And since I'd started on the ground floor as a consultant, it was a great opportunity for me to just stretch myself in shaping a project and all the rest. I absolutely loved working with Benny and the team, even though I didn't really understand anything about mental health at that stage, but I did. I did have an idea about schools and education. And in fact, that's what my manager at the time said this will be a this is a project that really fits with your background. So got involved with Benny with the team and then it sort of grew from there, from being involved in a number of different projects. So over a couple of years to then Place2Be being at the point where they were recruiting for a Chief Operating Officer and I decided to apply. And then on we go.
Sarah Brennan:So it's almost like the path was laid for you in a way it sounds like things dropped into place. But you would have been involved in, in private sector companies and you would have seen leadership and been advising leaders in those organisations and then to come into a charitable organisation and do the same. Was it very different? Was it a different experience the way leadership works?
Catherine Roche:So the work that we did at KPMG, actually was often sitting across those boundaries of private sector, public sector. And the step into the voluntary sector wasn't that different in that sense. So we were often working across different sectors with different motivations and delivering public services. So with an ethos around that, and then also, I think the ethos particularly within Place2Be and from our board was very much it, we are an organisation who wants to be efficient and effective delivering a great service for our beneficiaries, we've got to run in a business minded way. So that ethos was always within Place2Be. Again, we're delivering impact for children for schools. But the business has to run efficiently and has to stack up as a business. So in that sense, some of the principles in running an organisation were very similar.
Sarah Brennan:And the organisation has grown significantly since you've been there. Do you think having that approach and having that eye to the business as well as to the...well not even as well as the charitable liens, it's actually as the business side, they're having a clearer idea about the effectiveness and impact is maybe critical to both achieving its goals as an organisation, but also to then creating credibility and being able to do more of it? Would you say that that's one of the critical success factors of the organisation?
Catherine Roche:Most definitely. You have to understand well, in my view, you have to understand the impact that you're having. We have to be able to do that as a we need to strive to do that as efficiently as effectively as we can. Our operations need to be efficient when we're growing as an organisation. Our teams, you know, need to be motivated, we have to be good at things like setting up projects, delivering managing the expectations of our big inverted commas, customers, looking at the impact that we have, are we doing it effectively? So there are lots of the same principles as you have in in any organisation?
Sarah Brennan:So for you a leader, those things sound like they are absolutely core to your approach to leading an organisation, would you say that was true?
Catherine Roche:Understanding the impact of what we're doing is definitely, definitely core and then constantly striving to improve that and make that more effective. In our world it's about how do we reach more children, more schools, make the best impact on people's and our communities lives as we can. You know, in another world that might be about generating income generating profits or surplus, but the principles of running an effective business are are the same.
Sarah Brennan:And do you think that's typical of charities? Or do you think that's only among some?
Catherine Roche:I think that there are some who focus more on that. But I think it's also it also depends on what the charity does. I mean, there are very different types of charities, we are a service delivery organisation, a charity that is about campaigning or lobbying, which is do going about its work in a in a different kind of way might look at things a bit differently, or there would certainly be different measures in how you do it. I think it depends on the nature of the charity, and within Place2Be I think we're very clear we are a service delivery organisation first and foremost. And that's one of the things that that motivates me that I enjoy.
Sarah Brennan:Yes. And, and is gives the organisation a very strong drive I guess I mean, and from the people I've met in your organisation that is very clearly there. And one of the things I wonder about is when you've got a large staff, staff team, and volunteer team, who you depend on as well for delivery, all of whom are very committed and very passionate about what they do, all with a very strong ethical base and, and working with children, always, people have a strong ethical base, I think, especially with service delivery, how you are able, or how you have achieved a sense of togetherness of everyone going in the same direction, and everyone have working to the same standards, because that can be challenging sometimes when people think no, no, this is the right way to do it. And in a service delivery organisation, that can often be the case you have, you know, it is healthy as well to have those tensions, but how have you gone about creating that strong sense of togetherness that Place2Be provides?
Catherine Roche:I think first and foremost, and anybody who works in our organisation is focused on outcomes for, for the children, so the child is absolutely at the centre of what we are doing. And I think that can be very deep, that is a different, perhaps a different feature within again, coming back to a voluntary sector organisation or an organisation delivering social impact. I think that ethos that really brings people together the aim to deliver to best support the children, they're absolutely at the heart of why we are all here, that sense of purpose. And then I think the values over the years, we've done a lot to...we defined from a very early stage actually coming from Benny again, as our founder, the values which are perseverance, integrity, compassion, and creativity, and thinking through at varying stages of the organization's growth and development. What do they mean practically in our work, and how they relate to our day to day behaviours and how we are for all of us, whether we sit, whether we sit in, in the back office, or whether we are in the schools, I think we all feel that connection. And going, going to what we call a being is relieving visit, where we go into a school, and we hear about how our services delivered on the ground, what it means for the school leader, the class teachers, the parents, the children, when that's the thing that grounds us all, if you like, and brings us all together.
Sarah Brennan:That sounds really strong as well, like a very strong root that kind of holds the organisation true to itself as well. I guess, in in terms of what you do. And I'm also interested in your in your path, because moving from Chief Operating Officer to Chief Exec, many people do it, but there is that whole thing isn't there? Well, when you're in a different position, a different role in the organisation, suddenly you see things differently. And I wondered especially with a passionate and charismatic founder, what it was like to move from the COO position to the CEO position. And as a, again, I think as a leader, what that meant in terms of how you how you behaved or how you managed yourself and the and the organisation.
Catherine Roche:So that's a really, really interesting question, Sarah. Just thinking about what you for you reminded me of that the deciding, do I go? Do I apply for this role of CEO? you know, what are my options? and thinking it through... When I was in that role of Chief Operating Officer, do I want somebody else to come in and be the lead? Can I do it? Or can somebody else come in and be the chief executive of them or what I think about that? I think Benny and myself worked so closely hand in hand together over over the years were very different characters. I've I very much pictured myself as the kind of hard hat let's make it work. Where's the plan? Where are the milestones, where the work streams and then to go off and make it happen? Obviously, Benny plays a huge role in that also But was very much more focused on the external world and environment where as the organisation became larger, I think more of my time was on the internal workings and the making it happen. So but I, I felt that I really, in terms of our overall plan, it was the organisation was looking for somebody to continue on the same journey. So not somebody who was coming in to make to completely throw things up in the air and completely change direction. So it's very much a progression. So and I felt I could do that, and that I could do that really well. So I applied for the role that was a terrifying experience and being interviewed, because you also, you're thinking, I really want this, but I'm actually really different. And how's it going to be? And then actually, I had a terrific pro bono supporter, who was a professional coach, who worked with me on that very question of how is it different? What's the lens, you look at things through as a chief operating officer to when you are the chief executive? And how will you be seen by people, and to prepare me for that stepping into a different, a different role and a different set of shoes, if you like, which was incredibly, incredibly beneficial to get me to step back and think a bit differently about it. And I think the role of CEO much more of my time is is of course is external to what what it had become as Chief Operating Officer. So it's just a different mix.
Sarah Brennan:So you don't feel that you have had to change your style or your approach as chief executive from how you were as the COO?
Catherine Roche:Well, people who people used to always think, oh, goodness, Catherine goes back to our teaching days and my you know, red pen and the detail. So I myself worry sometimes that I am, well I've come at it from knowing the organisation from the inside out. And sometimes you do have to remind yourself to step right back from it. And make sure that we we keep open enough and that we're hearing enough and clear enough about what's going on in our outside world. But which we are within the sector, I think with with wider, wider chief execs and wider goings on in the sector, which keeps us moving forward.
Sarah Brennan:So it's worked well, actually?
Catherine Roche:Yeah, in terms of my own personal style. I don't I haven't changed my, my, I don't think I've changed my personal style. I think I'm a very similar type of person.
Sarah Brennan:Yes. Yeah. So I was just really asking about whether you felt that Oh, as the chief exec leader, I, I need to be not being so spontaneous, or I don't know, if there were traits that you felt....Sometimes people expect things of themselves when they become a chief executive about what what is appropriate behaviour, or how to be that leader as a in in a chief executive position, rather than, you know, there are leaders in all parts of the organisation, but I was just interested to know if that had been a challenge. But it sounds like you, you just stepped into it very easily and straightforwardly. You're a natural, clearly!
Catherine Roche:Oh Sarah, steepest steep learning curve learning every single day. And of course, you're in different environments. And as the organisation grows, there are different expectations as well, I think, in terms of positioning within the sector and the scale, and as we grow and experience as well. Yes, that's interesting, that you think, as the organisation has grown, actually, that changes the, what you have to do and what you have to think about, there are different sorts of challenges that you need to consider. So as you say, your role your position within the sector as a whole is certainly because from the earth in the earlier days, we we were very much the small, innovative, you know, interesting organisation, so even for funders, you know, funders who who are others who might see us as, as you know, as a small, innovative, creative organisation who is growing, who has ambitious plans, and we're getting there, but then then there kind of comes a period of time where, where you're in a meeting, somebody goes, "Oh, yes but you're Place2Be. You're the big national organisation". That was a real step when when you when, you know, I was suddenly aware that we were seen differently as an organisation as major players within the child's mental health arena.
Sarah Brennan:Well and highly respected I think part of that was that was the respect and credibility that place to be has within the sector that what you do has impact you know exactly what you said you felt was really important to pay attention to is what then other people reflect back really I suppose to because because of the impact because you can show what you do. So it's quite interesting, isn't it? How it kind of comes full circle?
Catherine Roche:Yeah, and and I think that's everybody within the organisation work so hard and continues to work so hard to achieve that everybody goes back to the difference we're all trying to make for children and, and we know that by evidencing that that helps to further and improve both our work as well as making that wider case for children's mental health within the system as a whole.
20:59
That's it from this episode of leader to leader. I do hope you enjoyed it. And if you did, please rate and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Next time Catherine comes back, and she will be talking specifically about how they rose the challenges of the pandemic and the enormous impact COVID-19 had on children's lives and schools. Until then, take care.
